Topic: Chipper Jones

[tdub2.0]

is batting .317 and is pushing a .900 OPS at 40 years old.

and i remember people in this forum questioning whether or not he was first ballot. lol. idiots.

bow to official 3B GOAT bitches

[TH]

bow to official 3B GOAT bitches

In a parallel universe where he's not 20 WAR behind Mike Schmidt using both FanGraphs and B-R standards, maybe.


ETA: And if A-Rod played the hot corner his entire career, he'd be leaving both Chipper and Schmitty in the dust. Right now, Chipper's comparable to George Brett and Brooks Robinson. Not bad company, HoFer for sure, but only the GOAT at terrible televised pre-ASG speeches.

[tdub2.0]

In a parallel universe where he's not 20 WAR behind Mike Schmidt using both FanGraphs and B-R standards, maybe.


ETA: And if A-Rod played the hot corner his entire career, he'd be leaving both Chipper and Schmitty in the dust. Right now, Chipper's comparable to George Brett and Brooks Robinson. Not bad company, HoFer for sure, but only the GOAT at terrible televised pre-ASG speeches.

well according to both FanGraphs and B-R standards, the Phils are in the basement in last place.

BOOM NIGGA.

[TH]

well according to both FanGraphs and B-R standards, the Phils are in the basement in last place.

BOOM NIGGA.

Well, this information is totally new to me and not known to me at all this year. I'm gonna go cry in the corner now, aight? Aight.

[Webweaver]

In a parallel universe where he's not 20 WAR behind Mike Schmidt using both FanGraphs and B-R standards, maybe.


ETA: And if A-Rod played the hot corner his entire career, he'd be leaving both Chipper and Schmitty in the dust. Right now, Chipper's comparable to George Brett and Brooks Robinson. Not bad company, HoFer for sure, but only the GOAT at terrible televised pre-ASG speeches.

Chipper is better than Schmitt and it pains me to say it because I hate Chipper Jones.

[The_Spoiler]

Chipper is better than Schmitt and it pains me to say it because I hate Chipper Jones.

No, he's not.  And it really isn't even close.
 
- Schmidt is a 3 time NL MVP (only Barry Bonds won more), Chipper is a 1 time NL MVP.
- Schmidt is a 12 time All-Star at 3rd Base, Chipper is an 8 time All-Star.
- Schmidt won 7 NL Silver Slugger awards over the final 8 years of his career (more than any other NL 3rd Baseman) compared to Chipper's 2.  (And if the award had existed prior to that point Schmidt likely would have had at least 4 more)
- Schmidt is an 8 time NL Home Run Champion (Most in NL and 2nd most in MLB after Ruth), Chipper never won a Home Run Title.
- Schmidt won 10 Gold Gloves at third (most in the NL and 2nd most in MLB), Chipper won none. 
-  Schmidt was a World Series MVP, Chipper was not.
- Chipper did win an NL batting title though, which Schmidt never did.

Fact of the matter is that Chipper was a great offensive third baseman, but does not really come close to Schmidt who was the BEST offensive BASEBALL PLAYER of his era and one of the top 2 or 3 greatest defensive third basemen of all time.

[Webweaver]

No, he's not.  And it really isn't even close.
 
- Schmidt is a 3 time NL MVP (only Barry Bonds won more), Chipper is a 1 time NL MVP.
- Schmidt is a 12 time All-Star at 3rd Base, Chipper is an 8 time All-Star.
- Schmidt won 7 NL Silver Slugger awards over the final 8 years of his career (more than any other NL 3rd Baseman) compared to Chipper's 2.  (And if the award had existed prior to that point Schmidt likely would have had at least 4 more)
- Schmidt is an 8 time NL Home Run Champion (Most in NL and 2nd most in MLB after Ruth), Chipper never won a Home Run Title.
- Schmidt won 10 Gold Gloves at third (most in the NL and 2nd most in MLB), Chipper won none. 
-  Schmidt was a World Series MVP, Chipper was not.
- Chipper did win an NL batting title though, which Schmidt never did.

Fact of the matter is that Chipper was a great offensive third baseman, but does not really come close to Schmidt who was the BEST offensive BASEBALL PLAYER of his era and one of the top 2 or 3 greatest defensive third basemen of all time.

All of those awards are compared to their peers at the time they played. Compare the numbers head to head and you get a different result. Chipper lead in every category except HR and Triples. Chipper is even better stealing bases.
Mike

Year

Age

Tm

AL - American League (1901-present) NL - National League (1876-present) AA - American Association (1882-1891) UA - Union Association (1884) PL - Players League (1890) FL - Federal League (1914-1915) NA - National Association (1871-1875)">Lg

G

When available, we use actual plate appearances from play-by-play game accounts Otherwise estimated using AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH, which excludes catcher interferences. When this color click for a summary of each PA.">PA

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">BA

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">OBP

(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">SLG

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">OPS

			18 Yrs	2404	10062	8352	1506	2234	408	59	548	1595	174	92	1507	1883	.267	.380	.527	.908
			162 Game Avg.	162	678	563	101	151	27	4	37	107	12	6	102	127	.267	.380	.527	.908

Chipper

Year

Age

Tm

AL - American League (1901-present) NL - National League (1876-present) AA - American Association (1882-1891) UA - Union Association (1884) PL - Players League (1890) FL - Federal League (1914-1915) NA - National Association (1871-1875)">Lg

G

When available, we use actual plate appearances from play-by-play game accounts Otherwise estimated using AB + BB + HBP + SF + SH, which excludes catcher interferences. When this color click for a summary of each PA.">PA

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">BA

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">OBP

(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">SLG

For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA per team game played">OPS

			19 Yrs	2496	10605	8978	1617	2724	549	38	468	1623	150	46	1509	1409	.303	.401	.529	.930
			162 Game Avg.	162	688	583	105	177	36	2	30	105	10	3	98	91	.303	.401	.529	.930

[TH]

Except that Mike Schmidt by every metric imaginable, including visual ones from people who've watched both guys, is light years ahead of Chipper Jones in defense. Baseball isn't just batting, and even though the offensive stats LOOK similar, Schmidt played in an era where it was a lot harder to put up numbers that Jones could. Schmidt is the best 3B ever.

[Webweaver]

Are you saying Chipper is a cheater?
No one cares about defense. You don't get into the hall for defense.

[TH]

Are you saying Chipper is a cheater?

No, I'm saying it's easier to produce offense in this era than it was in the '80s, which is a fact.

No one cares about defense. You don't get into the hall for defense.

Ozzie Smith begs to differ so, so hard. Defense isn't glamorous, but it's way important. It's why Mike Trout should win MVP over Miguel Cabrera this year in the AL.  But that's pretty much willfully ignoring that Mike Schmidt, in a pitcher's era, hit 60 more home runs than Chipper Jones in 600 fewer plate appearances and racked up other comparable offensive stats despite the era difference.

[TH]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=7I8cP

Smith's fielding runs according to Fangraphs - 239.0
Aparicio's fielding runs - 149.0
Mazeroski - 147.0
Maranville - 130.0
Schoendienst - 49.0 (outlier, probably got in for his managerial record)
Nellie Fox - 112.0

Comparatively speaking, Brooks Robinson, whose career OPS is .723, not bad but  not spectacular either, is at 294.0 fielding runs, which is pretty elite. He's regarded as the best defensive 3B ever. He's in the Hall, mainly for defense.

Mike Schmidt is at 127 fielding runs and has a career OPS of .907. Chipper Jones' OPS is .927, which is also very good. He'll get in the Hall of Fame. He should. His career defense is at -41.7 fielding runs. That means he's not better than Mike Schmidt.


ETA: The point is, people clearly do care about defense.

[tdub2.0]

i dont know why anyone would ever engage a philly fan in a debate about Schmidt. He's really all they have.


Chipper is a top 3 all time 3B and the second greatest switch hitter that's ever lived on this earth. He is a first ballot hall of famer and a god.


The end.

[The_Spoiler]

i dont know why anyone would ever engage a philly fan in a debate about Schmidt. He's really all they have.


Chipper is a top 3 all time 3B and the second greatest switch hitter that's ever lived on this earth. He is a first ballot hall of famer and a god.


The end.

I am not sure I'd put him in front of either Mantle or Rose as a switch hitter (and maybe not even Eddie Murray); but, yeah, the rest of these statements seems pretty accurate.

[tdub2.0]

I am not sure I'd put him in front of either Mantle or Rose as a switch hitter (and maybe not even Eddie Murray); but, yeah, the rest of these statements seems pretty accurate.

Its Mantle, Chipper, and then the rest. Pete Rose shouldnt even be a part of the convo, and he's an all-time great switch hitter himself. That's how far ahead Mantle and Chipper are.

[Webweaver]

No, I'm saying it's easier to produce offense in this era than it was in the '80s, which is a fact.

Not a fact. In todays era of specialized pitchers it is more difficult to score runs than it was then. Players are better today than they were then as well. Every generation is better than the previous generation.

[hossler]

Are you saying Chipper is a cheater?
No one cares about defense. You don't get into the hall for defense.

Tell that to Ozzie Smith...