Topic: The Washington (Professional Football Team)

[BlackLight]

I'm more interested in the underlying question than I am in "Should they change it, or shouldn't they?"

And the underlying question, to me, is "What percentage of Native Americans need to be offended in what Washington calls its football team before we have a good reason to change it?"

[RealMarchHare]

You aren't going to see it changed.  Professional sports are immune to the forced change because they have the money to keep themselves safe from it (Hell they could just pay the offended tribe off most likely).  I mean think about it there are a ton of professional sports teams with names that would be changed if they were a school.  Just off the top of my head:

Chicago Blackhawks
Atlanta Braves
Cleveland Indians
Washington Redskins

I'm sure there are more as well and I just can't think of it.

[BlackLight]

I doubt they would pay anyone off. In 2009, the SCOTUS declined to hear a case challenging the validity of the Redskins' trademarks (Ostensibly - the suit was motivated by offense at the name and logo). That suit had been in the courts for 17 years - and either nobody was interested in a settlement, or nobody was offering one. Add to that, I think it would set a horrible precedent.

That so many other teams have similar names and don't draw this sort of scrutiny is more a commentary on the hypocrisy implicit in the Redskins case. I have no doubt that some Native Americans are genuinely offended, but it seems to me that many, many more white people are feeling offended on their behalf.

[RealMarchHare]

I can agree to that.  White people feeling sympathetic on their behalf to try and make themselves seem like better people or some such non-sense

[POE-Bot Activated!]

For whatever reason, I think of potatoes when I hear Redskins, not American Indians/Native Americans.

[BobbyR]

My alma mater is St Johns. As much as I hate sports I wasn't happy when they changed the name from Redmen to Red Storm. OTOH, the new logo is bad ass

[RealMarchHare]

My Mum and Dad are both Miami of Ohio grads.  Dad was not happy when it changed to the Redhawks

[BlackLight]

Tell me about it. And what about when Syracuse went from the Orangemen to the "Orange?"

WHERE DOES POLITICAL CORRECTNESS END?

[BobbyR]

^ Is that real? How the fuck is Orangemen offensive?

[The_Spoiler]

For whatever reason, I think of potatoes when I hear Redskins, not American Indians/Native Americans.

It's probably the giant red potato on the side of their helmet that makes you think of that.

[The_Spoiler]

I can agree to that.  White people feeling sympathetic on their behalf to try and make themselves seem like better people or some such non-sense

Serious question:  In your opinion, should only the targets of specific incedents of racism be allowed to be offended by said racism?  Or is it acceptable for right minded people of all races to be offended by racism is general?

[Chus-Kay]

^ Is that real? How the fuck is Orangemen offensive?

it's offensive to people who use spray tan.

[RealMarchHare]

Serious question:  In your opinion, should only the targets of specific incidents of racism be allowed to be offended by said racism?  Or is it acceptable for right minded people of all races to be offended by racism is general?

No I do not feel that way.  I guess I should have expanded my thought in that response.

I find more and more in this modern world now that there is a large amount of well off and well to do white parent's (Think typical suburban family, PTA Mom, etc.) fighting against all these "racist incidents.  When you listen to them talk it just comes across as they are trying to be "hip" and "Modern".  They aren't doing it because they are genuinely offended that this level of racism still exists but doing it just because they think it looks good to be "fighting" for the little guy.  Makes them look good and progressive.  How else do you explain the random junior high school's in the middle of white country getting their mascots changed.  It's not like there is any Native American (or whatever ethnicity) is present in the area in any large amount, if present at all, to create the size stink put up.  It comes across as very self gratifying as opposed to what they think they are doing.  Think of last year with all the Kony 2012 posts on Facebook and other social media sites.  Sharing the story or posting a "Fuck Kony" message didn't do shit other than placate your own personal need to feel like you have somehow contributed to the solution.  I mean I could be very off base with all this but that is just my opinion and thoughts from personal experience.

Also, I'm from Syracuse.  Born there.  Yes they were the Syracuse Orangeemen/Orangewomen.  It was changed in 2004.

[FreebirdSTF]

I was thinking about this as it relates to the Braves.  As a Braves fan of course I don't want to see that changed, but I also don't think the name itself is nearly as offensive as Redskins.  So long as the Braves don't use the Screaming Indian logo I don't think it's nearly as offensive as the Chief Wahoo imagery either.  To me (and I'm biased), the Braves are far less offensive than the Indians and Redskins by a fair margin.  All that being said, I'm not sure I can objectively argue with people's distaste for the tomahawk chop, etc. 

I even sat and thought about some new Braves names the other day and one thought I had was simply keeping the name, but removing the attachment to "indian culture."  How you would do this and it not come across hokey, I don't know, but that's what I'd like to see if Atlanta is ever forced to drop their current mascot.

[BlackLight]

Quite often, American Indians who do take offense don't take it at the name of team, but at the behavior of the fans - who dress up in warpaint and headdresses, waving around prop tomahawks.

[FreebirdSTF]

Right.  The chop is very prevalent.  I only recall seeing one guy in warpaint/indian garb at the last game.  That part isn't as common anymore and they've minimized the Screaming Indian logo (not eliminated it surprisingly).  Chief Noc-A-Homa is long gone. 

I don't say any of that to defend the Atlanta team, just that I'm not sure exactly where the lines should be drawn.

I think if forced to take a stance right now I'd probably say the following:

• Washington Redskins--Name needs to change.
• Cleveland Indians--Chief Wahoo has to go away and the whole name probably should be rethought.
• Atlanta Braves--Screaming Indian logo needs to be put away.  Not sure how you deal with the tomahawks or the big drum out in the outfield (which I love).

[BlackLight]

Until I get a better sense of just what percentage of American Indians actually think the word "Redskins" is offensive, I think they should keep the name. As Rick Riley pointed out in a recent column, at least three high schools with majority American Indian student bodies call their teams the Redskins - they're proud of the name. Whomever decided on the Redskins name evidently didn't consider it a slur - why knowingly give your team a derogatory name? And then write a team fight song called "Hail to the Redskins?"

On a more philosophical point - isn't it kind of the world we want, where words once thought offensive to certain people have evolved their usage to the point where most people don't even realize the word was formerly offensive? And many of the ones that do realize it, just don't care?

[RealMarchHare]

I thought so as well and that's something I constantly bring up in all the sexist/gender debates when the Chauvinists and Feminzi's get involved.