Topic: RAW 2-21-2011

[OneManX]

We're not advocating TNA-style "nonsensical parity booking" though.  We're saying they need to have guys that are perceived to be on Cena's level and not make everyone a supporting character to him.  Also they need to have their top faces (especially Cena) be booked with a little vulnerability.

Cena has won 1 match this year (Elimintation Chamber). Lost 3 matches to Punk, got his ass handed to him by Nexus when they debuted, got fired by Wade Barrett, lost to Sheamus in his first title match EVER (cleanly) !
 
And that's what everyone else is, Cast, it's  a TV show Cena is Tony Soprano, Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Ross/Rachel, he is the main point of the show, everyone is built upon their interactions with the main thread. All character aspire to take that top spot.

[TH]

Just because EVERYONEISNOTFIGHTINGFORDUHBELT Doesn't mean they dont get pushed. In order to make the product good you need mid card guys, you need a pecking order and most of the new guys fit in certain places on the pecking order, not everyone is gonna be World Champion, but they dont need to. If they come in and find a role for themselves, then mission accomplished, the whole notion that everyone needs a title is why Matt Hardy is running around on Twitter like an asshole, moaning instead of dealing with that fact that he was a gatekeeper guy, who was NEVER gonna be considered a main event guy.

If anything, the notion that everyone needs a belt is what's ruining the build for these young guys. Clearly, Swagger wasn't ready to hold the World Championship, but they gave it to him anyway. Why? Because apparently, no matter how shittily they treat the titles, they think titles mean you get over. That's not the case. I don't want guys to hold the title just to say they held the title. I want guys to get pushed and to mean something. Webby says that if you push everyone, you push no one, and he's right (I mean, LOOK at TNA), but at the same time, if you push nobody, then you get fans who clamor to see a bunch of guys get a decent push, and you get situations where people get pissed off when a guy like Barrett, who was clearly not ready to win the WWE Championship and after he was buried by Cena, was treated as such, didn't win the title at Survivor Series.

The WWE kept missing the boat on pushing new guys, and now, they have to scramble to elevate Punk, del Rio and Miz to make up for the years that they let Orton, Trips, Taker, Edge and Cena on top get stale. To deny that is to drink the Kool-Aid. Furthermore, to defend the booking by saying "oh well, it's Cenas world guys! LOL" despite the fact that he's clearly not growing the business is asinine to say the least. Cena sells merch to the existing fans, but when you're not bringing anyone new in, maybe it's time for you to share the spotlight.

[OneManX]

If anything, the notion that everyone needs a belt is what's ruining the build for these young guys. Clearly, Swagger wasn't ready to hold the World Championship, but they gave it to him anyway. Why? Because apparently, no matter how shittily they treat the titles, they think titles mean you get over. That's not the case. I don't want guys to hold the title. I want guys to get pushed and to mean something. Webby says that if you push everyone, you push no one, and he's right (I mean, LOOK at TNA), but at the same time, if you push nobody, then you get fans who clamor to see a bunch of guys get a decent push, and you get situations where people get pissed off when a guy like Barrett, who was clearly not ready to win the WWE Championship and after he was buried by Cena, was treated as such, didn't win the title at Survivor Series.

The WWE kept missing the boat on pushing new guys, and now, they have to scramble to elevate Punk, del Rio and Miz to make up for the years that they let Orton, Trips, Taker, Edge and Cena on top get stale. To deny that is to drink the Kool-Aid. Furthermore, to defend the booking by saying "oh well, it's Cenas world guys! LOL" despite the fact that he's clearly not growing the business is asinine to say the least. Cena sells merch to the existing fans, but when you're not bringing anyone new in, maybe it's time for you to share the spotlight.

I'm sorry but as long as wrestling is profitable there are gonna be top guys, and "superman" because people pay to see these people lose/win/talk/eat a bowl of cereal When people start paying to see R-Truth dance and stuff, then we can talk about this.

all they've done is create a revolving door of guys to feed to Cena, he doesn't have a main rival, he's had rivals, he's had people get the best of them.

This idea that no one is getting a push, look at Sheamus year, Barrett got a feud against the top draw in the company, what is there to bitch about. He comes in and goes straight to the top guy. It's predictable in how this goes by now

Show up on RAW
Get a hot push
If you;re good
Go to Smackdown, cool off, stay consistently booked.

What's hurt Barrett is this Corre stuff, since they haven't done anything, honestly (fantasy booking alert) i;d have fed him to Edge or even Rey, give him a good feud to keep him going strong, he takes all the momentum from feuding with Cena and you keep it rolling, until you cool off on him.

Is the WWE booking rock solid? no, but in terms of introducing new guys and getting them over enough to sustain a reaction, what more proof do you want, is the WWE depending on safety guys at the top, obviously not they are getting ready to have the Miz headline a with Cena and have Del Rio in the co-main spot.

[FreebirdSTF]

Because you get to feud with Cena, you seem to think of that as a "push" regardless what happens once you've been smacked down by the "star" of the "show."  This show doesn't have to have only one main character, that's why I'm confused by your insistence that making Cena the thing everyone revolves around is the right decision.

[OneManX]

Because you get to feud with Cena, you seem to think of that as a "push" regardless what happens once you've been smacked down by the "star" of the "show."  This show doesn't have to have only one main character, that's why I'm confused by your insistence that making Cena the thing everyone revolves around is the right decision.

The push ends at Cena.

[FreebirdSTF]

The push ends at Cena.

Exactly.  That's the problem.

I know that's not how you meant it, but seriously these guys don't necessarily seem any better off after their push to Cena.  That's exactly the problem.  You consider that elevation.  I'm just not seeing it.

[TH]

The push ends at Cena.

That would be fine if it didn't mean that the guy getting pushed didn't tumble back down the card, never to be heard from again.

[Chus-Kay]

"and NEWWWWWWWWWWWWW world heavyweight John Cena contender..."

[FreebirdSTF]

That would be fine if it didn't mean that the guy getting pushed didn't tumble back down the card, never to be heard from again.

i wish i could quit you

[tillrules]

You guys are just nuts. The WWE has done a great job of building new stars. All the guys you are whinning about are The Miz last year. They are all ready for the Miz type push. That is what WWE does so well. They take a guy and push him to the moon when they are ready to do so.

You can't push everyone, you need supporting players. When the time comes the supporting playrs can step in as a star.

If you push everyone, no one gets pushed.

If they only needed to build supporting players, then that might be true.  But they need more than that right now.  HHH & UT are getting ready to retire.   At that point, they'll have on legit top guy, Cena.  A next level of guys like Orton and Edge who are serviceable champions, but not considered on Cena's level and few special attraction guys like Rey and TBS who can be stop gaps but not centerpieces.   They need to get a couple more performers to the top level and the guys who've been around the top, but never there are not the answer.

That's why guys like Punk, Miz amd ADR are so important.   They need to not just be guys who fall into the second level.  They need to be made to be stars who can legitimately compete with Cena and strong enough where the outcome is truly in doubt.   That's what I personally mean by "creating new stars." 

[TH]

To compound on till's point, Edge is retiring too, Orton is a Wellness/injury risk and Rey Mysterio has ligaments in his knees as thin as thread. If they had done due diligence in the last five years, maybe they wouldn't be hurting, but... oops!

[tillrules]

Cena has won 1 match this year (Elimintation Chamber). Lost 3 matches to Punk, got his ass handed to him by Nexus when they debuted, got fired by Wade Barrett, lost to Sheamus in his first title match EVER (cleanly) !
 
And that's what everyone else is, Cast, it's  a TV show Cena is Tony Soprano, Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Ross/Rachel, he is the main point of the show, everyone is built upon their interactions with the main thread. All character aspire to take that top spot.

That's the big problem.  It's the mindset that WWE creative has and it's patently innaccurate.  This is not a serial TV show like The Sopranos of Friends.  This is a simulation of an ongoing sports organization with a fanbase that expects to see change.  A TV show is designed to remain centered around the central star, with occasional "elevations" of characters who unexpectedly take off.  The status quo is what makes the show successful.  Conversely, wrestling in the modern era has centered around change, the centerpiece of the show has to change periodically or it becomes stagnant.

Moreover, the TV show model fails when you consider revenue streams.  They don't ask you to pay once a month for special episodes of the Simpsons or Family Guy.  You have to be able to deliver something special for those paid episodes and if the result is rarely ever in doubt, why should consumers pay for it.

[OneManX]

That's the big problem.  It's the mindset that WWE creative has and it's patently innaccurate.  This is not a serial TV show like The Sopranos of Friends.  This is a simulation of an ongoing sports organization with a fanbase that expects to see change.  A TV show is designed to remain centered around the central star, with occasional "elevations" of characters who unexpectedly take off.  The status quo is what makes the show successful.  Conversely, wrestling in the modern era has centered around change, the centerpiece of the show has to change periodically or it becomes stagnant.

Moreover, the TV show model fails when you consider revenue streams.  They don't ask you to pay once a month for special episodes of the Simpsons or Family Guy.  You have to be able to deliver something special for those paid episodes and if the result is rarely ever in doubt, why should consumers pay for it.

It's a TV show, it's always been a TV show, the moment you think it's a sport, is the moment you've fucked yourself over you lost..

Again, the PPV model is in needs of major overhual, but for some reason so of these shows have increase of buys, and the WWE doesn't seem to be stopping soon.

As well as the idea of an evolving centerpiece, when has that ever worked in wrestling? What company has the really worked for? TNA? ECW? WCW?

[TH]

It's a TV show, it's always been a TV show, the moment you think it's a sport, is the moment you've fucked yourself over.

It's not a TV show, it's not a sport. It's a hybrid of both. That's what you and WWE creative don't understand.

[Little Jimmy]

It's not a TV show, it's not a sport. It's a hybrid of both. That's what you and WWE creative don't understand.

Wrestling is at it's best when it makes you forget it's a TV show and believe it's a sport.

[OneManX]

It's not a TV show, it's not a sport. It's a hybrid of both. That's what you and WWE creative don't understand.

Dude, TV wrestling is booked like a TV Show, corny segments in all. Dont believe pull up some AWA, super corny stuff happened then to.

This isn't Japan, where wrestling is considered a sport, or Mexico where it's  religion, it's the US, where it's viewed as some dumb TV show.

No one in the business believes it's a sport, read up on any interview with Cornette, or Dutch, or any WWE writer.

[TH]

Dude, TV wrestling is booked like a TV Show, corny segments in all. Dont believe pull up some AWA, super corny stuff happened then to.

This isn't Japan, where wrestling is considered a sport, or Mexico where it's  religion, it's the US, where it's viewed as some dumb TV show.

Booked like a TV show =/= is a TV show. Do you know how to analyze in shades of grey, because that's what wrestling is. It's not exactly TV, but it's not a sport either. It has elements of both, and if you think either way about it, you miss the point entirely.

There's nothing else out there like pro wrestling. Nothing. To pretend you can compare it directly to UFC or to Friends is disingenuous.

[TH]

No one in the business believes it's a sport,

Because it's NOT A SPORT. It's NOT TV. It's BOTH.

read up on any interview with Cornette,

Cornette would agree more with what I'm saying than what you would, or else he wouldn't be working for ROH.

or Dutch, or any WWE writer.

They're all morons and don't get it, so no, I won't take what they have to say seriously.

[OneManX]

Booked like a TV show =/= is a TV show. Do you know how to analyze in shades of grey, because that's what wrestling is. It's not exactly TV, but it's not a sport either. It has elements of both, and if you think either way about it, you miss the point entirely.

There's nothing else out there like pro wrestling. Nothing. To pretend you can compare it directly to UFC or to Friends is disingenuous.

And yet we can bust out the TV tropes the WWE/WCW/ECW/TNA pretty much fall right into it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WWE

Maybe TV is too far, but I'll say theater.

It's good guy vs bad guy and good guy overcomes the odds. It's the Wizard of Oz, where everyone is fighting to get the Ruby Red Slippers (the World Title Belt) That's wrestling stripped down to it's overall theme.

[TH]

You don't get it, and you never will.

[Niko]

I wouldn't be surprised if they swerve us with UT Vs HBK 3, have Triple H return and attack Sheamus and everything else commence as its been built up. I'd love to see a tag team championship scramble for the titles, but that's wishful thinking.

I've also got the munchies. Gonna dig my car out of the snow and go get some ice cream, hopefully back home and at home in time for raw for a change.

[OneManX]

You don't get it, and you never will.

Because there is more evidence to prove that I'm right?

[tillrules]

And yet we can bust out the TV tropes the WWE/WCW/ECW/TNA pretty much fall right into it.
Maybe TV is too far, but I'll say theater.

It's good guy vs bad guy and good guy overcomes the odds. It's the Wizard of Oz, where everyone is fighting to get the Ruby Red Slippers (the World Title Belt) That's wrestling stripped down to it's overall theme.

No, the Wizard of Oz is a single feud between Dorothy and The Wicked Witch of the West over the Ruby Slippers.  To truly be wrestling, the story would have to keep going and you'd have to deal with fans wanting to see Glinda get the Slippers or the crowd popping for the Munchkins and when it would be proper for the Scarecrow to turn on Dorothy to get the Slippers.

The thing you keep missing and/or ignoring is the element I keep pointing out, the fact that modernly you cannot keep returning to the status quo in the way a TV show or a movie series can and does.  You have yet to address that.

[Little Jimmy]

You don't get it, and you never will.

That's not really a fair statement to make to him. What makes your definition more right than his? I personally lean more towards your side Tom, but still, you shouldn't state your opinion as fact.

Here's an actual fact, Vince McMahon considers it a TV show, he has said so many times.. At the end of the day, isn't that who's opinion matters most, since he's the one in charge of the company and all?

Now Tom, as much as you hate Hunter, you might want to root for him to take over soon for Vince, because I wouldn't be shocked to see the tide turn more in your direction when he does.

[TH]

Because there is more evidence to prove that I'm right?

No, because you're dense and you're trying to make the equivalence that just because there are TV elements that it's 100% TV. You ignore things like kayfabe, presentation, no offseason etc. So go ahead, make all the proofs you want, because it doesn't mean that it's 100% TV or theater. It's something unique and entirely different than nearly anything you can compare it to. It bears repeating... to say otherwise is disingenuous.