Topic: A Good Match

[Zandrax]

This is spawned from TH's 2011 MOTY thread. I think it's an interesting enough topic to make its own thread.

What to you makes a good match? What separates good matches from truly GREAT matches? And what separates great matches from Match Of The Year Candidates? Drama? Crispness of moves? Crowd reaction? Highspots? Commentary?

The short answers for me are: If they can make me forget that what I am watching is pre-determined, then I would call that a good match. If they can get me emotionally invested in who wins and loses, then I would call that a great match. If it's a match that is still fresh in my memory at the end of the year, then I would call it a MOTY Candidate.

[TH]

I know a good match when I see it. That's the only answer I can give.

[FATSEXY]

It has always been about good storytelling. Back in the old times, "i can whoop this guy" was all the story you needed. That is still the best story. But there are wrinkles now. The UT/HHH match had lots of history. Triple H's face after UT kicked out of the Tombstone was fantastic.

I think technology changed rasslin'. Duh, right? Back when you had a house mic going through a PA, each guy talks, they rassle, bingbangboom.

Now, with jumbo HD screens everywhere, you can see HHH's face during the match.

[Chus-Kay]

movez and legit reactions.

[Zandrax]

It has always been about good storytelling. Back in the old times, "i can whoop this guy" was all the story you needed. That is still the best story. But there are wrinkles now. The UT/HHH match had lots of history. Triple H's face after UT kicked out of the Tombstone was fantastic.

I think technology changed rasslin'. Duh, right? Back when you had a house mic going through a PA, each guy talks, they rassle, bingbangboom.

Now, with jumbo HD screens everywhere, you can see HHH's face during the match.

I think this is a legit point. In a way, the internet has clouded the art. Now just about anybody with a net connection can look up smark terms and think they know mechanics. I think this is akin to scouring over IMDB and thinking you know the ins and outs of Hollywood.

[Chus-Kay]

I think this is a legit point. In a way, the internet has clouded the art. Now just about anybody with a net connection can look up smark terms and think they know mechanics. I think this is akin to scouring over IMDB and thinking you know the ins and outs of Hollywood.

i figured you didn't really want to know what we think makes a good match.

[Zandrax]

i figured you didn't really want to know what we think makes a good match.

Why would I make the thread otherwise?

[Chus-Kay]

Why would I make the thread otherwise?

from your last post, it just seems like you are ready to disagree and argue with anyone who doesn't quite like matches the way you like them.

i'm like tom.  i like what i like.  when people ask me, i use terms like workrate when necessary to describe what i liked.  if that makes me a "smark who thinks he knows mechanics" then so be it.

[Zandrax]

from your last post, it just seems like you are ready to disagree and argue with anyone who doesn't quite like matches the way you like them.

i'm like tom.  i like what i like.  when people ask me, i use terms like workrate when necessary to describe what i liked.  if that makes me a "smark who thinks he knows mechanics" then so be it.

I can assure you that is not the case.

[freud mayweather]

i like when dudes do cool stuff. sometimes that's picking up two men at the same time, sometimes that's cm punk winning all the belt, sometimes that's hbk or the rock doing a kip-up three quarters of the way through a match.


awesome dudes do rad shit

[Torgo]

Mark Henry cumming everywhere.

[The Big Don]

Different matches are good for different reasons because of what the wrestlers in those matches are capable of.  HHH v. Taker was a bomb fest, with two old farts over selling and where the best spot worked as well as it did almost entirely because "smarks" like us know HHH is a real life POS and believed his ego was big enough to let him beat Taker clean with his own move at Mania.  The exact same match - even with a comparably hot storyline, in a huge building and without commercials - involving Punk and Cena would not have worked nearly as well.  Conversely no way in hell HHH and Taker would have been able to have the sort of match as Punk v. Cena at MITB even if all the variables were the same and match was laid out in the exact same fashion

[Zandrax]

I absolutely agree that different matches can be made with different factors. And not everybody can do the same type of match. Archibald Peck vs. Colt Cabana at CHIKARA's High Noon was an awesome match, but it was pretty much a comedy match. It was still a damn good one.

[FATSEXY]

Different matches are good for different reasons because of what the wrestlers in those matches are capable of.  HHH v. Taker was a bomb fest, with two old farts over selling and where the best spot worked as well as it did almost entirely because "smarks" like us know HHH is a real life POS and believed his ego was big enough to let him beat Taker clean with his own move at Mania.  The exact same match - even with a comparably hot storyline, in a huge building and without commercials - involving Punk and Cena would not have worked nearly as well.  Conversely no way in hell HHH and Taker would have been able to have the sort of match as Punk v. Cena at MITB even if all the variables were the same and match was laid out in the exact same fashion

I strongly disagree with you that only the smarks got a rise out of the Tombstone spot. What percentage of wrestling fans are "smarks", anyway? Within the context of "only what you see on TV" being your knowledge of WWE, everyone knows that HHH is married to Stephanie. So maybe that aspect played into peoples' minds, but it wasn't just the smarks, PLUS usually when you see someone use their opponent's own finishing move on them, you know something special will immediately follow. So when HHH did the UT's old school pin on him to get the count, most anyone who has been following wrestling at all over the past ten or so years was probably ready to see the three count. And they were surprised when it didn't come.

And then Triple H backed away. He had gone from the killer to being afraid in that split second. The crowd, who knew that Taker was going to win, because Taker always wins at Mania, actually bought into HHH winning. That is amazing.

[stratknight]

I strongly disagree with you that only the smarks got a rise out of the Tombstone spot. What percentage of wrestling fans are "smarks", anyway? Within the context of "only what you see on TV" being your knowledge of WWE, everyone knows that HHH is married to Stephanie. So maybe that aspect played into peoples' minds, but it wasn't just the smarks, PLUS usually when you see someone use their opponent's own finishing move on them, you know something special will immediately follow. So when HHH did the UT's old school pin on him to get the count, most anyone who has been following wrestling at all over the past ten or so years was probably ready to see the three count. And they were surprised when it didn't come.

And then Triple H backed away. He had gone from the killer to being afraid in that split second. The crowd, who knew that Taker was going to win, because Taker always wins at Mania, actually bought into HHH winning. That is amazing.

Being there live was amazing.  70,000 people turned into complete marks for those 45 minutes.

[freud mayweather]

i like when dudes do cool stuff. sometimes that's picking up two men at the same time, sometimes that's cm punk winning all the belt, sometimes that's hbk or the rock doing a kip-up three quarters of the way through a match.


awesome dudes do rad shit

oh man, i forgot my favorite things in a match which are power-walking and cobras.

[Zandrax]

Being there live was amazing.  70,000 people turned into complete marks for those 45 minutes.

Oh man, now imagine how much more awesome it would have been had they had replaced that match with Chris Masters vs. Tyler Reks.

[Linus]

I like if dudes thun other dudes around the place and then that dude that got thrun, he goes 'HEY BUDDY, C'MERE, YOU AIN'T THRUN ME NO MORE' and he starts a thrunnin the fust fella. Then the fust fella he sits back aways like he can't believe someone thrun him as hard as he been thrun, and he's all 'HEY CONSARN IT I WAS A THRUNNIN YOU YOU WUSN'T THRUNNIN ME AN' I'M A FIXIN TO RECTIFY THE SITCHEASHUN'.
Then bruther, you got yourself a match.

[FreebirdSTF]

Oh man, now imagine how much more awesome it would have been had they had replaced that match with Chris Masters vs. Tyler Reks.

I agree with you, but do you seriously not grasp how someone could watch just the execution of a match and ignore these other factors? 

[The Big Don]

I strongly disagree with you that only the smarks got a rise out of the Tombstone spot. What percentage of wrestling fans are "smarks", anyway? Within the context of "only what you see on TV" being your knowledge of WWE, everyone knows that HHH is married to Stephanie. So maybe that aspect played into peoples' minds, but it wasn't just the smarks, PLUS usually when you see someone use their opponent's own finishing move on them, you know something special will immediately follow. So when HHH did the UT's old school pin on him to get the count, most anyone who has been following wrestling at all over the past ten or so years was probably ready to see the three count. And they were surprised when it didn't come.

And then Triple H backed away. He had gone from the killer to being afraid in that split second. The crowd, who knew that Taker was going to win, because Taker always wins at Mania, actually bought into HHH winning. That is amazing.

I'm not saying the spot only worked for "smarks."  I'm saying it was a much better/believable finish as a "smark."  I was there live and it was the only false finish in the match I bought at all. 


The "specialness" of guys doing each others finishes has totally eroded at this point though.  The tombstone and the setting is an exception, but in general finisher switcharoo is one of the most overblown WWE tropes

[The Big Don]

Oh man, now imagine how much more awesome it would have been had they had replaced that match with Chris Masters vs. Tyler Reks.

Imagine if they had replaced it with one of those classic - i.e. awful matches from that shit indy in Ohio

[TH]

Oh man, now imagine how much more awesome it would have been had they had replaced that match with Chris Masters vs. Tyler Reks.

This coming from the guy who thought that Kelly Kelly was worth a vote on his A1W 100 ballot.

[Zandrax]

This coming from the guy who thought that Kelly Kelly was worth a vote on his A1W 100 ballot.

I was running out of names 

[Zandrax]

I agree with you, but do you seriously not grasp how someone could watch just the execution of a match and ignore these other factors? 

I just find it difficult to get emotionally invested in a match that doesn't feel like a big deal. If the match doesn't mean anything, then it may as well be a squash match. Outside of Dylan and TH, literally nobody seems to remember that match on any board I've been to.

I really haven't watched much indie wrestling outside of PWO, a Chikara show or two, and a couple NWA Hollywood episodes, so I don't have as much of a grasp on the indie scene.

[FATSEXY]

This coming from the guy who thought that Kelly Kelly was worth a vote on his A1W 100 ballot.

I'd rank Kelly Kelly #1 if she'd just brush a nipple against my leg as I wore a parka.