Author Topic: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees  (Read 7385 times)

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ILTOA

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Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« on: December 16, 2010, 06:03:09 PM »
with the signing of Jenks, per CHB on his Twitter.  Evil Empire you say...

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 09:10:52 PM »
FWIW, I think around the time the BoSox won their second WS most people realized they are just as "bad" as the Yanks. 

TH

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 09:23:24 PM »
FWIW, I think around the time the BoSox won their second WS most people realized they are just as "bad" as the Yanks. 

I realized this when they tried to trade for A-Rod.

http://media.www.thetriangle.org/media/storage/paper689/news/2004/02/27/Sports/Red-Sox.Have.Themselves.To.Blame.For.Rodriguez.Trade-620694.shtml

PC2219

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 07:30:36 AM »
with the signing of Jenks, per CHB on his Twitter.  Evil Empire you say...

Honestly? I'd like to see the numbers. Not just some statement by someone on Twitter...

However, Sox are definitely "going for it" now. I don't like it and I think this type of spending is unbalanced as not every team is the draw that several big market teams are, even when they are winning.

That being said, it's very difficult (with this rule structure) for the Sox to win when the Yanks average a 200 million dollar all star team. So I guess they are trying to go for it now. I still don't think they are at the level of the NYY but it does sadden me to see this happening.

A Very Smug Bear

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 10:04:22 AM »

That being said, it's very difficult (with this rule structure) for the Sox to win when the Yanks average a 200 million dollar all star team. So I guess they are trying to go for it now. I still don't think they are at the level of the NYY but it does sadden me to see this happening.

Not really. The Sox have been #2 for a long time anyway and the Yanks overpay most of their home grown guys like Jeter, Mo, etc... which accounts for some of the higher payroll.

PC2219

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 07:41:05 PM »
Not really. The Sox have been #2 for a long time anyway and the Yanks overpay most of their home grown guys like Jeter, Mo, etc... which accounts for some of the higher payroll.

Not really. They were number 2 in 2010 but like 40-50 million less.
In 09 they were number 4 with over 80 million less.
in 08, 4th with over 70 million less.

And the home grown guys aren't the problem. The number 3 and 4 hitters (Arod and Tex) make how much? Number 1 starter (CC) makes how much? Lets not forget the Randy Johnson, Pavano, Kevin Brown, Sheffield, Matsui, Giambi, Mussina, etc.... 

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 08:18:15 PM »
Not really. They were number 2 in 2010 but like 40-50 million less.
In 09 they were number 4 with over 80 million less.
in 08, 4th with over 70 million less.

And the home grown guys aren't the problem. The number 3 and 4 hitters (Arod and Tex) make how much? Number 1 starter (CC) makes how much? Lets not forget the Randy Johnson, Pavano, Kevin Brown, Sheffield, Matsui, Giambi, Mussina, etc.... 

They've been in the top 5 for the past decade... A decade where the Yankees have won 1 world series, and the Red Sox 2.

PC2219

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 07:55:03 AM »
They've been in the top 5 for the past decade... A decade where the Yankees have won 1 world series, and the Red Sox 2.

Totally correct and missing something.

But you have to admit that top 5, and number 1 are different. Especially when the difference between 1 and 2 are so much money. They are clearly a large market team. But this year they are spending like crazy and they are just now even approaching Yankee spending on a yearly basis. So honestly? It comes down to small market teams, large market teams, NYY. Boston is doing it this season (though I don't believe they will beat them in payroll; I have yet to see stats on this. Just some guy claiming it on Twitter. Yeah sure that's fact right there. Plus NYY will make moves) But the Sox would have to do this regularly and they won't.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather they not spend like this. If the way you can "field the best team" is by spending a ton of money, then that tells me you didn't do a very good job at scouting and player dev. Of course being in the AL East makes it worse because you basically have to do this to compete with NYY (or get incredibly lucky at the right time).

Then again, the Sox bought one expensive Free Agent this season. Jenks isn't a massive contract and AGon was obviously traded for. I don't think it can compare much to  '08.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 12:44:36 PM by PC2219 »

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 10:18:38 AM »
Totally correct and missing something.

But you have to admit that top 5, and number 1 are different. Especially when the difference between 1 and 2 are so much money. They are clearly a large market team. But this year they are spending like crazy and they are just now even approaching Yankee spending on a yearly basis. So honestly? It comes down to small market teams, large market teams, NYY. Boston is doing it this season (though I don't believe they will beat them in payroll; I have yet to see stats on this. Just some guy claiming it on Twitter. Yeah sure that's fact right there. Plus NYY will make moves) But the Sox would have to do this regularly and they won't.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather they not spend like this. If they way you can "field the best team" is buy spending a ton of money, then that tells me you didn't do a very good job at scouting and player dev. Of course being in the AL East makes it worse because you basically have to do this to compete with NYY (or get incredibly lucky at the right time).

Then again, the Sox bought one expensive Free Agent this season. Jenks isn't a massive contract and AGon was obviously traded for. I don't think it can compare much to  '08.

I didn't believe this line of thinking was still prevalent anymore. Ever since the Yankees have been the number one highest spending team by a large margin, they haven't done any better than anyone else. They really started separating themselves from the field in salary in 2001, right when they stopped winning championships on a regular basis.

It doesn't matter how deep the Yankees pockets are if they give millions upon millions to A.J. Burnett, and if they give $275m to an Arod that already showed signs of breaking down.. not to mention giving $17m a year to a .270 hitting Derek Jeter. The Yankees have CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes(home grown), and who exactly as their pitching staff. They also overpay Jorge Posada. Robinson Cano is homegrown and a bargain. Their bullpen is half home grown or minor trades. Their left fielder is home grown. Anyone could have had Nick Swisher, it's not like he is breaking the bank.

My point is the fact that while the Yankees have a huge payroll, they're overpaying for practically everyone.. And if everyone on their team was getting fair market value instead of getting over inflated Yankee money, you'd probably see their payroll would be no higher than anyone else's.

Meanwhile, the Devil Rays, Giants, Rockies, Cardinals, Astros,  Phillies, Marlins, and Angles have all made appearances in the World Series, oh and the Red Sox twice.



Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 10:20:46 AM »

 Lets not forget the Randy Johnson, Pavano, Kevin Brown, Sheffield, Matsui, Giambi, Mussina, etc.... 

They didn't win jack shit with those guys on the team, as a matter of fact, it was during that period that the Red Sox beat the Yankees and won their first world series in 86 years. The money argument just doesn't hold weight with me.


Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 10:30:28 AM »
5 of the 8 playoff teams were in the bottom half of the league in payroll. The Rangers(who beat the Yankees btw) were one of them, coming in at #26, the 2nd lowest. The Wild Card team was the Rays, who also came out of the AL East, and check in at #19(also in the bottom half of the league, 17 slots below the #2 ranked Red Sox).

Again, the money argument just doesn't make sense to me.

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 11:54:00 AM »
The fact that the Yanks can overpay everyone they want is a bit of a problem.  Whether they've had as much success as they should with that large a payroll is another discussion.  It is kind of funny to hear Yankees fans discussing this team every year because you'd think they were "the little engine that could" when they have one of the, if not the, highest payroll in the game.

PC2219

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 12:46:34 PM »


Again, the money argument just doesn't make sense to me.

Ok then answer this one:

If money doesn't guarantee anything and all those other teams with lower payrolls win more than the Yankees have, they WHY SPEND THAT MUCH AT ALL?

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 12:57:37 PM »
Ok then answer this one:

If money doesn't guarantee anything and all those other teams with lower payrolls win more than the Yankees have, they WHY SPEND THAT MUCH AT ALL?

Because the Yankees are not run well. Money hides a lot of that. If you're ugly, but you're rich, you'll still be swimming in women.

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 12:58:22 PM »
...and spending all that money still allows them to be a contender.  That's the point, man.

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 01:00:02 PM »
...and spending all that money still allows them to be a contender.  That's the point, man.

My point is that any team that is either rich, or at least run well, can compete. It's not only money that wins championships, although money hides other deficiencies, I admit that. Only the Yankees could not use AJ Burnett in the first round because he sucked. There's more than one way to win a championship, I'm just sick of the tired argument that the Yankees own baseball because they're rich when the evidence is against that.

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 01:02:29 PM »
That's the thing that those for a salary cap (me) don't like though.  You can throw money at your problem and fix it.  You don't really have that in any of the other major sports (to that level at least) and I think they are better for it.

I don't care for this situation down in Miami in the NBA, but at least those guys had to make a sacrifice to get together and play together.  It would be much more unfortunate imho if the Heat could just give all three guys a max contract and then still have money left over to bring in a strong bench etc.

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 01:04:35 PM »
Take this Jeter thing for example.  The Yankees (and a couple of other teams of course) don't have to make hard decisions when it comes to retaining players because they can simply say, "Yeah, he's not necessarily worth it, but we'll overpay him to stick around anyway."

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2010, 01:19:52 PM »
That's the thing that those for a salary cap (me) don't like though.  You can throw money at your problem and fix it.  You don't really have that in any of the other major sports (to that level at least) and I think they are better for it.

I don't care for this situation down in Miami in the NBA, but at least those guys had to make a sacrifice to get together and play together.  It would be much more unfortunate imho if the Heat could just give all three guys a max contract and then still have money left over to bring in a strong bench etc.

I agree with that. I am totally for a salary cap in baseball. It would force the Yankees to do things "the right way", my only point is that I hate the argument that somehow nobody else can win because the Yankees will just purchase a championship. This has ultimately already been proved false already....

Especially when fans of the #2 team in the league in terms of spending claim it.  8)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 01:46:04 PM by dorian »

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2010, 01:22:02 PM »
You're right that it's insane to suggest that no one else can win because the Yanks spend money.  The WS results you posted completely dispute that.  That being said they have more room for error in general because they can throw money at players and to help fix poor decisions.  What irritates me in general is when people seem to suggest that spending an assload of money in MLB gives a team no advantage whatsoever.  If you're like PV, you may very well say that it's perfectly OK that it does give you an advantage, but it's insane to suggest it isn't an advantage.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 01:23:38 PM by FreebirdSTF »

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2010, 01:28:55 PM »
You're right that it's insane to suggest that no one else can win because the Yanks spend money.  The WS results you posted completely dispute that.  That being said they have more room for error in general because they can throw money at players and to help fix poor decisions.  What irritates me in general is when people seem to suggest that spending an assload of money in MLB gives a team no advantage whatsoever.  If you're like PV, you may very well say that it's perfectly OK that it does give you an advantage, but it's insane to suggest it isn't an advantage.

I think we're agreeing with everything and just arguing it from two different points of view. :)

FreebirdSTF

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 01:32:00 PM »
agreed

PC2219

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 07:13:21 PM »
I agree with that. I am totally for a salary cap in baseball. It would force the Yankees to do things "the right way", my only point is that I hate the argument that somehow nobody else can win because the Yankees will just purchase a championship. This has ultimately already been proved false already....

Especially when fans of the #2 team in the league in terms of spending claim it.  8)

A cap is the only way that it can be fair. Why is good enough for other sports but not baseball?

Money isn't the only way to win, you are right but when you spend that much in baseball, you almost guarantee you will at least get a legit shot at it. Look at Florida in 97. Baseball is the only sport where it's less team, than individual. Sure there is teamwork but when you are on the mound, if you are dominant, you are willing. If you are locked in at the plate, you are hitting. In ever other major sport you are reliant on someone else to make the pass, or catch the pass or what not.

Oh and the number 2 team has been almost 100 million behind in salary so it's not a legit number 2. This year might be different. As I wrote in the other post, I don't like the Sox spending like this. But Im thinking that they believe their top young guys are in their prime and in the AL East, this is the only way to go for it. However, they only signed ONE major free agent. Not THREE. Big different.

Let me also add (and I am not including you in this as I can tell you are a baseball fan first), that part of this has to do with NYY fans, that I know. In no other other sport, does a team's fan go out of their way to talk about how many titles they have. I mean Lakers fans are snobby but they don't count then out for you, Celts too, in hockey, the Canadiens have far more than other teams,
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 07:15:22 PM by PC2219 »

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 11:06:28 PM »
A cap is the only way that it can be fair. Why is good enough for other sports but not baseball?

Money isn't the only way to win, you are right but when you spend that much in baseball, you almost guarantee you will at least get a legit shot at it. Look at Florida in 97. Baseball is the only sport where it's less team, than individual. Sure there is teamwork but when you are on the mound, if you are dominant, you are willing. If you are locked in at the plate, you are hitting. In ever other major sport you are reliant on someone else to make the pass, or catch the pass or what not.

Oh and the number 2 team has been almost 100 million behind in salary so it's not a legit number 2. This year might be different. As I wrote in the other post, I don't like the Sox spending like this. But Im thinking that they believe their top young guys are in their prime and in the AL East, this is the only way to go for it. However, they only signed ONE major free agent. Not THREE. Big different.

Let me also add (and I am not including you in this as I can tell you are a baseball fan first), that part of this has to do with NYY fans, that I know. In no other other sport, does a team's fan go out of their way to talk about how many titles they have. I mean Lakers fans are snobby but they don't count then out for you, Celts too, in hockey, the Canadiens have far more than other teams,

The fact that there is no cap is the real issue, not the Yankees. They are in the biggest media market and have their own TV station.. If they didn't have the biggest payroll in sports I'd be pissed. The real crime is teams like the Pirates, who have ownership which is content to be profitable at the expense of success. The richest owner in baseball owns the Twins.  The Yankees take the money they make and put it back into their product. If the system were to install a cap, there would need to be a salary floor as well. I would say minimum you spend $75m, max at $150m. None of these owners are poor, none. If a team isn't drawing(unless it's the Rays or Marlins, florida is terrible for sports), it's because they are fielding a shit team. If the owners spent money to improve the team, and the teams were in turn competitive, they may start off at a loss, but over time, attendance would spike and the money would be made up.

I live outside Detroit now, the Tigers are the best example I can think of for this. They went .500 this year, and were out of it by the beginning of September, but they were competitive in the division all the way up to that point, and injuries got the best of them. I went to a September game against the Twins after the Twins had already clinched the division, and they drew 35,000. 35k in one of the most financially depressed markets in america for a meaningless game. What's the Royals excuse for being awful? If the Royals were competitive, they'd draw 35k... but they'd have to spend money right? Oh well, spend money, and make it back later. The owners for the most part aren't interested in that, they would rather collect that luxury tax money and draw more fans when real teams like the Yanks or Sox come to town.

As for the Sox not being a legit #2, yes they are a legit #2. I think the biggest gap between the Yanks and Sox in salary has been $60m.. which is a lot I'll grant you, but come on... Not to mention, being #2 in salary means you're still paying more money to your players than 30 other teams in the league, not to mention more than every other AL team besides the Yankees.

Little Jimmy

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Re: Red Sox payroll passes Yankees
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 11:21:22 PM »

Let me also add (and I am not including you in this as I can tell you are a baseball fan first), that part of this has to do with NYY fans, that I know. In no other other sport, does a team's fan go out of their way to talk about how many titles they have. I mean Lakers fans are snobby but they don't count then out for you, Celts too, in hockey, the Canadiens have far more than other teams,

I know when I have been out wearing Yankee gear in the past, the first insult I usually hear is "you guys just buy your rings", which automatically brings out the "27 world championships, jealous much" response.

But I will preface that with the fact that most Yankee fans are spoiled assholes, I can admit that. I am a Yankee fan because my strongest memories of my late grandfather were of him taking me to Yankee games when I was a kid, long before salaries were insane, and long before I really knew anything about baseball. I remember they were awful, but it was cool spending time with my grandfather. The Yankees represent everything I hate about big time sports, but I love them to death because of my past. I totally understand why everyone hates them, and I probably would be on that bandwagon too if I wasn't born in to them.