Topic: Reimagining the Horsemen

[FreebirdSTF]

Something I was thinking about this weekend.

http://freebirdstf.blogspot.com/2013/02/reimagining-horsemen-80s-edition.html

It should be well documented by now that I am a huge fan of the IV Horsemen.  "Nature Boy" Ric Flair is my favorite wrestler of all-time for instance.  "The Enforcer" Arn Anderson is another guy I have a tremendous amount of respect for as well.  Ole Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Lex Luger and Barry Windham are all guys I enjoyed as a child all the way up until now.
 
 That being said, I got to thinking this weekend about how you could do the Horsemen back in the 80s without using any of these six individuals.  Some of the choices were difficult, but some were fairly easy for me.
 

• Nick Bockwinkel--"The Man"/"The Champ"
• "Mr. Wonderful" Paul Orndorff--"The Total Package"
• Larry Zbyszko--"The Enforcer"
• Harley Race--"The Grizzled Vet"

First, I'm going to acknowledge that this isn't exactly a Horsemen lineup we ever saw.  In this scenario I used a Flair, Arn, Ole and Luger version of the group as opposed to the original four.  Why?  Well, it just seemed to give me the best foursome even though it did not exactly follow the template.  Let's take a look at some of these decisions.
 
 Honestly, the biggest issue I had was coming up with "The Grizzled Vet"/Ole Anderson.  Actually in one sense it was difficult and in another it was simple.  As soon as I started thinking about it the name Harley Race came to mind.  My only issue was that I wasn't sure that a seven-time NWA World Heavyweight Champion was the best fit for that role in the Horsemen.  Ultimately, I went with Race for a couple of reasons.  One is that he exudes that same tough guy aura that "The Rock" Ole Anderson did.  Two, I knew that him and Bockwinkel had some history together.  Lastly, the idea of two multi-time world champions in the group was too good to pass up.
 
  Paul Orndorff was a bit easier.  He had the physique and he had the swagger of Lex Luger.  As seen when he turned on Hulk Hogan, he also had the mean streak that a member of the Horsemen would need.  I have even heard there were some discussions about putting PO in the group during his WCW run.  It really makes a lot of sense and I thought this chose was fairly straightforward.
 
 If you can't have Flair, I really believe the obvious choice is a flashy, articulate champion who was well respected and could talk the talk and walk the walk.  Nick Bockwinkel fits the bill perfectly.  He is not the same kind of guy as Flair by any stretch, but he certainly has the look of a guy who is "THE. MAN."  I cannot think of a better guy to build a stable around outside of "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair.
 
 I'm saving the most controversial for last.  Larry Zbyszko is not necessarily someone that everyone really appreciates.  A lot of this is due to his habit of stalling.  I think his run with Arn Anderson as a member of "The Enforcers" shows that Larry would be solid in this part.  I have repeatedly mentioned that I thoroughly enjoyed his run in the dying days of the AWA.  He is always entertaining and could really get the fans riled up.  Have him do some of the dirty work in order to make sure that Bockwinkel leaves as the champ and you've got a great "Enforcer."
 
 I would be interested to hear some thoughts about this list.  Let me know on Twitter @S_ATL_Wrestling or via the comments section.  I hope to do a 90s and today version of this list soon.
 
 Just remember, "Diamonds are forever and so are the Four Horsemen."

[Zandrax]

Was Arn ever called The Enforcer before teaming with Larry?

I don't think I could come up with a better team than the real Horsemen or the team you had. Though Bobby would have to play the JJ Dillon manager role.

The best I can do is a modern day Horsemen with Punk as The Champ, Brock as The Enforcer, Daniels & Kaz as the tag team, and Heyman in the JJ role.

[Chus-Kay]

i dunno.  larry hating aside, i think you have too many big personalities.  3 of them are former world champs.  anytime you have a group with multiple world champs, inevitably they have to split up because they all want the same thing - to be the world champ.
 
that's what made the horsemen so great.  everyone had a specific role.  ric flair...and only ric flair...was to be the world champ.  everyone else was to support him.
 
yes, young luger was ousted because he was being seen as a contender for the belt.  but in your group you already have 3 guys that were champs, know what it takes to get there, and of course will want to be champs again.
 
and dont forget that harley at that time wasn't that much past his prime.

[FreebirdSTF]

I never said he was past his prime.  He was a "grizzled vet" by that point though.  Two different things.  Harley was always "grizzled" really.

[FreebirdSTF]

I seem to recall that Arn was "The Enforcer" before teaming with Larry.  From my recollection the name of the team was derived from Double A's nickname, not the other way around.  I'll have to look though.  Also, I liked it when Larry was known as "The Cruncher" after slamming Dustin Rhodes'(?) hand in the car door. 

For this purpose I didn't consider Larry a former world champion because he did not win the belt until after this run.

[Chus-Kay]

I never said he was past his prime.  He was a "grizzled vet" by that point though.  Two different things.  Harley was always "grizzled" really.

i should have been more clear.  because he's not past his prime, he's gonna wanna be champ again.
 
i think you too many stars - in fact the whole list is big stars.  that never works.  too many egos.

[Chus-Kay]

also, not sure if you are throwing time out the window, but the horsemen formed in 86.  bockwinkel would have been over 50 at that point.
 
ill think on how i would reimagine the horsemen.

[Zandrax]

Admittedly I was new to WCW at the time, so it's very possible Arn had The Enforcer name before the tag team with Larry.

[Niall]

I seem to recall that Arn was "The Enforcer" before teaming with Larry.  From my recollection the name of the team was derived from Double A's nickname, not the other way around.  I'll have to look though.  Also, I liked it when Larry was known as "The Cruncher" after slamming Dustin Rhodes'(?) hand in the car door. 

For this purpose I didn't consider Larry a former world champion because he did not win the belt until after this run.

Fairly sure Arn was the Enforcer when he was TV champ, during the Horsemen incarnation with Sid Vicious.  Could be wrong though.

[FreebirdSTF]

also, not sure if you are throwing time out the window, but the horsemen formed in 86.  bockwinkel would have been over 50 at that point.
 
ill think on how i would reimagine the horsemen.

Not throwing it out the window, but I was thinking a bit earlier than that.  Bockwinkel still fits imho.  He was having good, long matches with Curt Hennig for the AWA belt around that same time (maybe earlier).

Bock was born in 34 and had an AWA Title match with Curt Hennig in May of 87 for example.  He could still "go."

[Niall]

The theme with the Horsemen that made it great for me was that in one group you had the four greatest heels in the company together at that time.  It's hard to argue that Flair, Arn, Tully and Ole weren't the best heels across JCP.  Same goes even for Luger as a Tully replacement when he came in.  In early 90s WCW, Barry, Sid, Arn and Flair were still probably the best heels in that promotion.

[FreebirdSTF]

Sid just didn't fit the mold though, but you are right about their importance as heels individually and collectively.

[Niall]

Sid just didn't fit the mold though, but you are right about their importance as heels individually and collectively.

Yeah he didn't fit the "smart heel" mould.

[Niall]

Sid just didn't fit the mold though, but you are right about their importance as heels individually and collectively.

This is principally why a 1998 Horsemen never worked, because the nWo already had all the best bad guys.

[FreebirdSTF]

I disagree with that.  Besides by that point the Horsemen were faces and many WCW crowds still ate it up.  They just weren't given any serious backing as it related to booking.

[Chus-Kay]

i just think what you've got is more akin to the megapowers or nwo than the horsemen.  you've got 3 former champs in there.
 
it'd be like making the horsemen with cena (flair), sheamus (arn), ryback (luger), and hhh (ole). 
 
i think bock and orndorf are pretty solid in the roles you slotted them for, but i would swap out the enforcer and vet.  maybe with mulligan and lanza.  then you got your world tag champ contenders who can also back up bock.
 
 
btw, race is younger than bock so kinda funny that you got him in the grizzled vet role   

[Chus-Kay]

This is principally why a 1998 Horsemen never worked, because the nWo already had all the best bad guys.

horsemen didnt work then because nwo was booked to roll over everyone.

[Chus-Kay]

I disagree with that.  Besides by that point the Horsemen were faces and many WCW crowds still ate it up.  They just weren't given any serious backing as it related to booking.

pretty much.  i mean, they put hennig in the group and fans LOVED it.  then they pulled the rug out and had hennig go to nwo and made horsemen look like complete fools.

[FreebirdSTF]

btw, race is younger than bock so kinda funny that you got him in the grizzled vet role   

Bock is not "grizzled" by any stretch of the imagination. 

I certainly get the point about Race being a former NWA champion and that's why I struggled with him so much..  Larry wasn't a former world champ at this point though.  Mulligan and Lanza might work, but even though Barry fit the mold I'm not sure his Dad did.

[FreebirdSTF]

pretty much.  i mean, they put hennig in the group and fans LOVED it.  then they pulled the rug out and had hennig go to nwo and made horsemen look like complete fools.

Yep, I would have considered Hennig for this, but I figured his time as a Horsemen (even though it was a swerve) would DQ him.  I like the idea of Dibiase a lot btw. 

As for an odd choice, I considered a heel Jim Duggan too.

[Chus-Kay]

Yep, I would have considered Hennig for this, but I figured his time as a Horsemen (even though it was a swerve) would DQ him.  I like the idea of Dibiase a lot btw. 

As for an odd choice, I considered a heel Jim Duggan too.

i really think they could have gotten a lot of miles out of hennig as the new flair of the horsemen with benoit, et al rounding out the group.

[Chus-Kay]

clearly the wwe version was the 90s hart foundation (when bret was feuding with austin and michaels).

[FreebirdSTF]

I agree about Hennig.  I've heard a lot of people say, "The concept was tired" by that point when I complain about the Hennig swerve.  The problem is the crowds certainly didn't seem to think Ric Flair and the Horsemen was an outdated concept especially in the South/Southeast.

[Niall]

I agree about Hennig.  I've heard a lot of people say, "The concept was tired" by that point when I complain about the Hennig swerve.  The problem is the crowds certainly didn't seem to think Ric Flair and the Horsemen was an outdated concept especially in the South/Southeast.

Not the concept.  My point was that aside from Flair, the group was a bunch of mid carders. Malenko, Benoit and McMichael, and Jarrett - none of those guys were ever going to be main event guys in a promotion that already had Hall, Nash, Hogan etc at the top.  I doubt Malenko, Jarrett and especially Mongo were ever really good enough to headline in the way that Hall, Nash and Hogan did during their careers.  Hennig was also past his best by the late 90s.

[FreebirdSTF]

Our point is that the group was still hot if WCW would have got behind it instead of cutting it off at its knees.  The Horsemen were still getting a great reaction and a past his prime Curt Hennig was still excellent Horsemen material.  WCW just had no interest in trying to get them over.

Basically, Chus and I are saying that your premise is incorrect.  While the late-90s Horsemen may not have been "the best heels in the promotion" they still could have succeeded.  The concept didn't fail because of the reason you stated.  It failed because WCW chose to not push them at all.